" AP has the numbers wrong -- Enzi and Barrasso were among the 35 senators who voted against cloture. See the Senate vote site.
As for Cubin, she's been a no show for quite some time. Why is she still getting paid?
The B&E vote may be moot -- the Bushco admin is going to tap the $700 Billion bailout fund to tide the big three over the next few months, when it becomes the task for the Obama Administration and new Congress. "

" Good job, Barasso and Enzi. These morons ran their companies into the ground along with the unions, let 'em fail.

I sure hope Lummis represents Wyoming better than Cubin. What is her excuse this time for missing a vote? "

" According to the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor, Wyoming is small potatos when it comes to auto industry jobs, ranking 49th in the country.
Still, that's 2,180 jobs and a payroll of $19 million -- mostly in car sales -- that the GOP just thumbed their noses at. "

" The best possible out come for all concerned would be for the big 3 to go into bankruptcy (which doesn't mean that you're out of business), consolidate, reorganize, modernize and emerge much more competitive.

Barbara Boxer's assertions that no one will buy a car from a company in bankruptcy is pure bull. We all fly on airlines daily that are in one chapter or another of bankruptcy as they continue to evolve their business models and scale back any remaining unproductive segments.

By declaring bankruptcy the big 3 would also have the opportunity to shed much of the UAW's federally directed shackles that are now killing the US auto industry like these job banks which pay workers that are not working up to 95% of their salary for doing nothing. Any company faced with useless socialist problems like that would go bell-up in time! "

" Thankfully there are some out there who are viewing this in a rational manner. The automakers need to shed debt in a restructuring that would allow the companies to eventually become profitable. Somehow Senator Corker convinced bond investors to write off a significant portion of this debt, but the deal was contingent upon the the automakers being able to reduce labor costs to enable the possibility of future competitiveness. But the deal falls through when the selfish greedy UAW will not play ball - completely disgusting that this one entity will not provide necessary concessions to save their industry. The white elephant concessions that UAW tout are a farce, since they are not currently in effect and apply to new employees which will not ever be hired during plant closures and lay offs. So now our lame duck President is going to give the UAW their platinum parachute welfare package and we get to pay for it. While I bought a new 2003 Dodge that I'm very happy with, I will never again buy another vehicle that has anything to do with the UAW. "

" Any business that cannot compete with it's rivals has one of two choices; do nothing and go under in time, or change to become more competitive in the market place.

Government intervention will only have negative effects for business, labor and consumers over time. It only prolongs the inevitable and it puts government in a position of control over the market place, able to then dictate to both business and consumers. Throughout history this has proven to be disastrous for economies.

The biggest negative effect will be on generations of Americans not even born yet. If the bail-outs continue these future generations will be in debt up to their necks for reasons not of their making. It will be our fault. We are trying to smooth out the bumps in our life's road today (a want) while sacrificing the next generations needs. "

" I don't think it's fair to blame the big 3 problems on the UAW. Auto workers have been replaced by plenty of machines and play a small part in production. The average auto worker is making $23/hour, not $77. The $77 hourly rate was arrived at by totaling the costs of all retirees as well as benefits for active and retired workers and their spouse. Then they divided this amount by the active workers in their plants. The big three failed by not engineering quality cars with low gas mileage. The CEO's have failed and should be fired instead of taking home $30 million/year and riding around in corporate jets. The big three plans to eliminate 30,000 American jobs and build yet another factory, this one in Mexico. GM recently opened a plant in Russia. The big three is lying to us about their solvency due to oversees production at a fraction of the cost. Maybe this is why the CEO's of the big 3 are making millions and riding around in corporate jets. They are asking for more money than their net worth in this country. We should not be bailing out these varmints. "

" Good on them. That was the right decision. Morgaging our great grand kids future to baily out failing businesses is crazy. If GM goes under, someone will buy up the "remains" and be back in business tomorrow to fill the void in the market. "

" Do not bailout the UAW! I'd rather the big three did go bankrupt, reorganized and moved their entire operations to "right to work states" where the union cannot again become a giant killer leech trying to bleed industry to death, which they have nearly done this time. The car makers cannot even modernize because of the UAW as it may drop some traditional, legacy (no longer needed) jobs. "

" Using federal tax dollars from other state to bale out selected industries in other states is unconstitutional.

This is specifically true taking tax dollars from right to work states and giving it to industries in union states. That is in violation of the peoples will.

It is also nowhere to be found in the constitution that the Congress of the US has the authority to pick and choose which companies will live and which companies will die.

Doesn't this also violate equal treatment under the law?

We must eject this Congress and replace them with ethical people that believe in and will follow (which they are sworn to) the constitution of this nation. "

" Doesn't it provide the car companies in Michigan with an unfair advantage over the car companies in Tennessee and Alabama by giving them tax dollars from across the country? Isn't this also unfair to the workers in the other states that are being forced to contribute their tax dollars to this plan? If Michigan has not passed a law that dictates that any worker in that state that wishes to work in the auto industry must be a member of the UAW (specifically the UAW, not just be a union member) this may not be so outrageous and egregious. Government forced union membership in one specific union as a term of employment it insane and should be unconstitutional in any free country. "

" Right on Barrasso and Enzi. Stick to your guns, you are on the legal and moral high ground. "

" Of course they did. The big 3 arent banks being run by morons. Helping them might have a chance of doing some good. Unlike the banks who have squandered the money on executive vacations. It is kind of insulting that banks can can wink and get billions any day of the week, but the largest employers in the country have to grovel before they are told to get F***ked. Is there need for any more reason to fire everyone in Washington and start over, what we have are morons from top to bottom. "

" First of all, Rick Wagoner makes 22 million a year to run GM, the UAW has given endless conessions to help out the big three and the execs at the top have given nothing. Its the workers who get laid off, not managment. Why should the UAW have to give up more? A two tier pay scale isnt enough? Losing most of your insurance isnt enough? Losing most of your retirement isnt enough? you all need to read others papers, or find other sources for news besides foxnews, because you have no clue. "

" Let them fail and once in bankruptcy all agreements with the UAW will no longer be hung around their necks dragging them down and making the car companies unprofitable against their competitors. When the car markers come back they will be better companies and labor will be better off to without the out of date and out of touch UAW. The union only cares about it's own existance and power just like Chris Dodd who only cares about getting re-elected. None of them really care about this nation's economy, our future or the constitution. Laws mean nothing to these self serving criminals. "

" We never should have started bailing out anyone. Now every company and for that matter state and local government with a tin cup will all be getting in line for a chunk of your and my pay checks.

How dare these idiots in congress grill the big 3's leadership when they did not say one word to the heads of the failed banks, they just doled out the tax payers money and said nothing to the bankers at all. Funny, congress cannot balance it's own national budget and they preach to the auto makers about accounting and economics! What an assinine joke.

We cannot bail out everyone and we should not even try.

Who found that hidden passage in the constitution that says congress can give your and my money away to businesses and governments? Where does it say that congress is allowed to pick and choose the companies and state and local governments that will be successful and which ones will fail?

Do any of you think that Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, Nancy Pelosi and Barbara Boxer are even smart enough to make the right decisions with out money IF the had the authority to do so? "

" Get a grip. If the economy wasn't so bad GM and Chrysler would not be going to the government. The banking industry is in a meltdown so who are they supposed to go to? If they go broke don't worry about a recession, the country will be in a full blown depression - how smart will you feel then? "

" Bail out? Use of tax dollars? The problem I see is that most of you idiots don't understand a darn thing-but want to blab about it. YES they are tax dollars-but it IS A LOAN. The money will be paid back WITH interest. You idiots make it sound like the money will leave and never come back. Dodge borrowed money in 1979 and paid it back. Remember that? Your tax dollars actually made money. Also I hope that none of you lose your job when and if GM files B.R. If you do-you deserve it. And as far as WY Senators voting no-send them to Japan. I guarantee this much for sure. Neither will EVER get a vote from me. Perhaps they will lose their jobs too when the unemployeement hits 2 million. Or I bet they will park their cars, have no lunches out and will work for $1 year, since THEIR companies are losing their ass too. "

" None of the little guys who work for the auto industry will be hurt if the big three go into bankrptcy.

The auto makers will reorganize while remaining in business and the wage earners will keep receiving their checks.

The one exception will be that the wage earners will no longer be giving a good chunk of those checks to the corrupt and power hungry UAW. They will be keeping their own money instead of giving it to the corrupt union bosses.

The inability of the big 3 to compete against the Germans, Japanese and the Koreans is 90% the fault of the GREEDY UAW.

This is our chance to kill a horrible and corrupt socialist organization once and for good. "

" For decades now, Wyoming has been a "right to work" state, meaning workers have the right to get fired for no reason and generally shafted by management.
Do you like a 40-hour work week?
Thank the unions.
Do you like overtime?
Thank the unions.
Do you like being able to work without getting maimed or killed on the job?
Thank the unions.
Do you like competitive wages?
Thank the unions. "

" Bail out? Use of tax dollars? The problem I see is that most of you idiots don't understand a darn thing-but want to blab about it. YES they are tax dollars-but it IS A LOAN. The money will be paid back WITH interest. You idiots make it sound like the money will leave and never come back. Dodge borrowed money in 1979 and paid it back. Remember that? Your tax dollars actually made money. Also I hope that none of you lose your job when and if GM files B.R. If you do-you deserve it. And as far as WY Senators voting no-send them to Japan. I guarantee this much for sure. Neither will EVER get a vote from me. Perhaps they will lose their jobs too when the unemployeement hits 2 million. Or I bet they will park their cars, have no lunches out and will work for $1 year, since THEIR companies are losing their as* too. "

" George, Only a small portion of this nations popualtion is even feeling the effects of the current economic down turn directly.

Get a grip.

Punishing all current tax payers and millions in generations to come is not how market economics works.

How many meals have you missed this week? Do you still have a car and roof over your head? You seem to have access to a computer that is on line, dump that and the cable TV service and then we'll see how bad your life really is today in America.

Again, get a grip! "

" Bail out? Use of tax dollars? The problem I see is that most of you idiots don't understand a darn thing-but want to blab about it. YES they are tax dollars-but it IS A LOAN. The money will be paid back WITH interest. You idiots make it sound like the money will leave and never come back. Dodge borrowed money in 1979 and paid it back. Remember that? Your tax dollars actually made money. Also I hope that none of you lose your job when and if GM files B.R. If you do-you deserve it. And as far as WY Senators voting no-send them to Japan. I guarantee this much for sure. Neither will EVER get a vote from me. Perhaps they will lose their jobs too when the unemployeement hits 2 million. Or I bet they will park their cars, have no lunches out and will work for $1 year, since THEIR companies are losing their as* too. "

" Bail out? Use of tax dollars? The problem I see is that most of you idio** don't understand a darn thing-but want to blab about it. YES they are tax dollars-but it IS A LOAN. The money will be paid back WITH interest. You idio** make it sound like the money will leave and never come back. Dodge borrowed money in 1979 and paid it back. Remember that? Your tax dollars actually made money. Also I hope that none of you lose your job when and if GM files B.R. If you do-you deserve it. And as far as WY Senators voting no-send them to Japan. I guarantee this much for sure. Neither will EVER get a vote from me. Perhaps they will lose their jobs too when the unemployeement hits 2 million. Or I bet they will park their cars, have no lunches out and will work for $1 year, since THEIR companies are losing their as* too. "

" The embers glowed softly, and in their dim light, I gazed round the room and I cherished the sight.

My wife was asleep, her head on my chest, My daughter beside me, angelic in rest.
Outside the snow fell, a blanket of white, Transforming the yard to a winter delight.


The sparkling lights in the tree I believe, Completed the magic that was Christmas Eve.
My eyelids were heavy, my breathing was deep, Secure and surrounded by love I would sleep.
In perfect contentment, or so it would seem, So I slumbered, perhaps I started to dream.

The sound wasn't loud, and it wasn't too near, But I opened my eyes when it tickled my ear.
Perhaps just a cough, I didn't quite know, Then the sure sound of footsteps outside in the snow.
My soul gave a tremble, I struggled to hear, And I crept to the door just to see who was near.

Standing out in the cold and the dark of the night, A lone figure stood, his face weary and tight.
A soldier, I puzzled, some twenty years old, Perhaps a Marine, huddled here in the cold.
Alone in the dark, he looked up and smiled, Standing watch over me, and my wife and my child.

"What are you doing?" I asked without fear, "Come in this moment, it's freezing out here!
Put down your pack, brush the snow from your sleeve, You should be at home on a cold Christmas Eve!"
For barely a moment I saw his eyes shift, Away from the cold and the snow blown in drifts..

To the window that danced with a warm fire's light Then he sighed and he said "Its really all right, I'm out here by choice. I'm here every night."
"It's my duty to stand at the front of the line, That separates you from the darkest of times.


No one had to ask or beg or implore me, I'm proud to stand here like my fathers before me.
My Gramps died at ' Pearl on a day in December,"
Then he sighed, "That's a Christmas 'Gram always remembers."
My dad stood his watch in the jungles of ' Nam ', And now it is my turn and so, here I am.


I've not seen my own son in more than a while, But my wife sends me pictures, he's sure got her smile.
Then he bent and he carefully pulled from his bag, The red, white, and blue... an American flag.
I can live through the cold and the being alone, Away from my family, my house and my home.


I can stand at my post through the rain and the sleet, I can sleep in a foxhole with little to eat.
I can carry the weight of killing another, Or lay down my life with my sister and brother..
Who stand at the front against any and all, To ensure for all time that this flag will not fall."


" So go back inside," he said, "harbor no fright, Your family is waiting and I'll be all right."
"But isn't there something I can do, at the least, "Give you money," I asked, "or prepare you a feast?
It seems all too little for all that you've done, For being away from your wife and your son."


Then his eye welled a tear that held no regret,
"Just tell us you love us, and never forget.
To fight for our rights back at home while we're gone,
To stand your own watch, no matter how long.
For when we come home, either standing or dead,
To know you remember we fought and we bled.
Is payment enough, and with that we will trust,
That we mattered to you as you mattered to us."

This economic pull back really affects few of us just like the War on Terror affects few of us directly.

But which is more important to our security, safety and prosperity? "

" Uh George - Regardless of the economy, GM and Chrysler wouldn't be going to government if the UAW hadn't saddled them with unrealistic costs that keep them from being competitive. I'm not worried about your fear mongering depression comment, since I have a grip and know that the industry isn't just going to vanish and Chapter 11 will eventually correct the problems. Hopefully the government does not waste a bunch of money a prolong the pain of us getting through this needed restructuring. "

" California is $28,000 more in debt every minute of every day, should we bail out the Hollywood rich too or let them make the hard choices and cut some of their rediculous social programs like paying for illegal aliens to get college degrees? That is the next round of begging for a piece of your pay checks that is coming. "

" You all talk a good game but you might want to go down to the County Tax Office a see how much your local domestic dealers pay in property and sales taxes that you will have to pay when they are no longer with us. The foreign car makers are not going to replace the small dealers in Wyoming. . You may also take a look at what the Trona mines sell to the domestic industry. "

" Check your facts Fooey. UAW isn't hugely out of line. You are confused over the total employee costs which has benefits being paid to people that have worked there over the last 100 years. Might also read about the effect of bankrutcy so that you can understand how it affects all of the suppliers, dealers and the like. I guess you think the minute someone files for BR the world starts over with no interuption. A grip is in order. "

" Didn’t anyone else’s parents teach them you can’t believe everything you see on T.V.? This is sensationalism at its best, the victims are being criminalized. Every manufacturer in the world is going to their respective governments for LOANS (not a BAILOUT) due to the unforeseeable down turn in the world economy.

U.S. manufacturers produce better or equal quality vehicles with better or equal fuel economy. But that doesn’t sell newspapers or keep the “idiocracy” glued to their T.V. sets with their mouths open waiting for momma bird to plunk a worm in it. "

" Richard, The contribution of the car dealers in Wyoming is statistically insignificant. Your tale of terror is a paper tiger and fraudulent argument. Besides, those dealerships are not going anywhere. The big three can reoraganize get trimmer, lose the union chains, and come out on top, ready to be winners again. Our representation in the Congress has it's head on right and made a good call. "

" Holly, once you find out what is going on in America with unemployement, the credit and housing crisis you can write about America. Until then, maybe you should just write about whatever country you live in. "

" Inky, Labor protection laws are now and have long been on the books.

There was a time in American when unions were needed. Back in the days of sweat shops and child labor.

Those days are now long, long gone and the laws protecting hourly workers are all in the books and being enforced.

Unions are long over due to extinction, they no longer serve the workforce or any other positive purpose. Unions are only a drain on all parties concerned and an obstruction to progress. "

" Our congressmen made the right call. "

" The bought and paid for democrats are all beholden to the unions like the UAW. So, now they are all marching to the UAW's drum like the blindly faithful stooges that they all are. If you want unions in control of your government then you are an idiot and should run for governor of Illinois. "

" Some elected official who probably paid someone for his senate seat gets a hold of a microphone and talks about subjects he doesn’t bother to research and everyone thinks “he’s the MAN?”. If the same guy said spraying crops with Gatorade would make them “grow more better” would you run out and buy some Gatorade? You idiots better learn how to spell depression – that’s where we’ll be when the energy business in Wyoming grinds to a halt because part suppliers can’t supply parts. "

" CANADAY YOU, LIKE THEM, ARE WRONG! "

" fnozman , fnozman, FNOZMAN, FNOZMAN - No need to repeat yourself verbatim. The reason the senate blocked this is because the "loan" applicants did not have a decent plan to ensure that the "loan" would actually be paid back. This was wise underwriting and it is too bad that in recent years this concept was lost, because it might have prevented the current terrible economic situation. Unless the UAW is willing to relieve the companies of burgeoning unrealistic obligations, the companies cannot operate a competitive business, so this was indeed a short term bail-out and nothing more than a fleecing of the American people by the UAW.

Begging - you are so right. It is really discouraging that soon we will be faced with CA's problems, which wouldn't be as repulsive if they did not have huge welfare programs for illegals. "

" Looks like Rahm Emanuel is not helping to show a clear seperation between BHO and the indited governor of Illinois. Seems that the Illinois mafia that created BHO will also be his undoing. Maybe we will be lucky enough to have this same scandle take down the UAW's leadership too. "

" I can’t wait to see that hot-shot driver dropping a load of pipe on his Camry and “headin’ ore Sou’ Pass”. Didn’t get enough of that $4.00 gas??? Don’t worry, you’ll get another shot at it soon. Agriculture business – gone, Energy biz – gone, travel and leisure biz – gone, NASCAR biz (OMG!) – gone!! Heating bills through the roof, Electric bill – through the roof. "

" Congress can't balance it's own financial house, who are they to try and tell anyone how to run a real for profit business and to give anyone our hard earned tax dollars that has already run thier business into the ground? I'll be d_mned if they'll squander my tax dollars on bailing out the corrupt UAW to pay for labor banks and other stupidity. "

" George, I'm not confused at all and you unknowingly proved my point. All the years of unrealistic UAW costs have saddled the companies with so much debt that they cannot compete, which means they are not profitable. Something has to be done with that debt to make them profitable, or they cannot remain in business. Since the UAW refuses to accept logical solutions, then bankruptcy is the remaining viable option. What we are seeing is the "chickens coming home to roost" after many years of stupid UAW contracts. It really is simple if you would remove your emotional illogical tie to the union gods. "

" There is a state law in Michigan that directs that anyone that works in the automobile industry must be a member of the UAW and only the UAW.

Is this the type of government-industry relationship that you want to bail-out?

How much more corrupt can labor and government be?

No bail-out. Let the companies declare bankruptcy and emerge on the other side stronger, better and union free. "

" We’re not talking about a fly-by-night Taco stand going belly up. Or just 3 little (Fortune 500) companies going belly up. Wake up….this isn’t “oh well, we’ll file BK today and tomorrow everyone can go back to work and make money”. You don’t shut down a huge supply chain, then fire it back up overnight. "

" Over the years the manufacturers have made great money more often than not. Were they stupid then also? No, bad economic times create bad bottom lines. "

" Holly, you’ll be the first one throwing a fit when your Hyundai needs a battery and the import store tells you “we should be able to get that battery from Indonesia in about 4 months. In the mean time, we have this bicycle you can borrow for only $20 a day!”. You’ll look cute on that 10-speed with your skirt caught in the spokes!! "

" VIOLET. I agree with the first part of your statement. However you are DEAD wrong about UAW. I do not agree w/ 100% of their actions-however 'your' tax dollars are ALSO mine and we need to give the BIG 3 a LOAN. "

" No more bail outs. We will never recover our tax dollars wasted on this stupidity already. "

" No surprise these two party-only jack-azzes voted the way they did. Talk about out of touch and unable to see the big picture. Hey Barrasso and Enzi, did you two geniuses take a look at how many Wyoming jobs are going to be lost when you towed the Union-busting Republican line? Barrasso? Ain't you two supposed to be all abouit the working man? Phony and bought by big money with a messed-up loyalty to a party. Put the party line first, right Barrasso? You're a joke who got gifted your job by Gov Dave only because state law said he had to appoint a member of the departed Senator's party. What a mistake you turned out to be. You might go to work at the Capitol, but you're Cubin all the way. "

" ABOUT TIME OUR ELECTED IDIOTS DO SOMETHING RIGHT. ITS NOT OUR DEBT WHY WE HELP. CUT THE CEO'S PAY TO MAKE UP FOR THE BILLIONS LOST. I DID THE MATH; THE 3 SMALLESTEST STATES IN POPULATION IF YOU DIVIDE THE 14 BILLION BY THE TOTAL POPULATION OF THE 3 STATES YOU COULD GIVE CLOSE TO $10,000 TO EVERY IN THOSE 3 STATES. SO SCREW OFF CEO'S!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "

" GOOD, this is a great call, I applaud their vote. These companies need to be taken out behind the barn. Toyota sold as many cars as GM. Toyota made 17 Billion and GM lost 38 Billion. Do the math the unions have hosed themselves and the companies they have milked for so long. "

" I'm glad our senators voted "No." I'm glad it was defeated.
Hey, I feel bad for the people who are going to lose jobs over this crisis. "'Been there; 'done that." I was downsized in the mortgage crisis, a year ago. I'm a licensed professional working in food service. (Not fast food, but I would do that, if it meant paying the rent.) I'm having the time of my life!!! Life is what you make it.
In case you missed it, it is probably a token defeat, because Paulson intends to use TARP for the auto industry. "

" Those Senators in the Republican Party who voted against a bridge loan to the Big 3 are Anti-Business. "

" It is amazing how so many of the above bloggers have swallowed anti-union propaganda and sad that Enzi and Barrasso want to use the situation to break the UAW.
Hey Violet, are you equally upset about the Wall Streeters who paid themselves millions while driving the economy off he cliff with unregulated credit swaps and derivatives.
$15 billion is small change compared to the $700 billion authorized to rescue the banks, the 500 TRILLION debt racked up by the banks or the multi-trillion for Iraq.
It is absurd for B&E to express fiscal concern now when they never said a peep about the waste and corruption of the Bush years. "

" I tend to agree with the decision by Wyoming's hardcore Republican Senators to oppose a direct bailout of the Big 3 automakers, but only the conclusion ; the Up or Down ,Yes or No vote. We should not use taxpayer money to reward failure, and certainly without a good plan for accountibility .I wholly disagree with Enzi and Barrasso's reasons for voting down the bailout . Because---- the remaining GOP Senate caucusers dug a trench , put on their helmets and flak jackets and dug in to lay down artillery and small arms fire against Unions.

I'm nearly positive that Enzi and Barrasso cast their votes in the interests of Union Busting above all. Not the only reason , but the weighty one. They won't admit to it, but here came a golden moment for the GOP to kill organized labor for good. It was fulfillment of Ronald Reagan's marching orders. A sacrament. It sends a strong message to all labor unions, not just the UAW.

I don't feel like kicking the dead horses that litter all the comments above. I merely want to add one thing to this discussion. There was a time in recent American history when we as a nation were "hitting on all 8 " , when wages were very high and productivity was high and the factories and mills were running around the clock from sunrise on the east coast across the red iron and yellow crop heartland of middle America to the occidental powerhouses of the west coast. There was full employment for all who wanted it ( caveat: minorities were distressed) , no sign of recession, and we as a nation were building massive infrastructure for generations to come. Housing was affordable and available. and more abundant each passing day. The Middle Class was surging , and buying American made cars as fast as the UAW and the Big 3 could build them. America was strong and ruled the Free World. Opportunity abounded.

That golden era when American capitalism hit its alpine peak and planted the flag was 1956, during the middle of the Eisenhower years.
And get this----47 percent of the US labor force was unionized. Nearly half of the workforce in all sectors belonged to a union in the 1950's

So what changed ?. Well, today , the percentage of organized workers has fallen to less that 8 percent nationwide. Note that in red letters. Before the horrendous mistake of Vietnam , America was a creditor nation and everyone owed us money. We had massive exports , and the strength of the Alimighty Dollar as the world's defacto currency allowed us to import consumer.goods cheaply. Everything on the financial balance sheets was in America's favor, coming and going.

But then came the Conservative Republicans, who sold their souls ( again) to the corporations. Reagan instigated massive deregulations of major industries , retooled the financial machinery to send capital offshore, and began union busting ( remember the huge Air Traffic Controlers snafu?). Reagan poured the foundations and built the first floor of the House of Capitalist Shame. George HW Bush added some rooms. The Gingrich Revolution in 1994 really went to work on behalf of lobbyists for corporations and financial houses, and by the time Clinton left office he had been forced to enact some really REALLY bad legislation against his own principles , for which he should not be forgiven. Forget the stained blue dress. Democrat Bill Clinton sold out to Wall Street and K Street. Perhaps the singlemost damaging piece of legislation rammed thru the corporate Congress was repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act of 1934, which has built firewalls and moats that separated the financial industry into distinct entities and eliminated the pathways to monopoly and massive conglomeration of Big Business. FInally , along comes Shrub Bush who allowed the US Dollar to fall to near worthlessness overseas, among other transgressions.

All of this added up to a triple whammy against the US middle class. America in 2008 is a debtor nation, housing has collapsed, credit is unavailable, we can neither afford to export nor import, and we are running a massive national deficit. We have sold our future to foreign sovereign wealth funds and warlords, sheiks, tyrants, and one heckuva huge Dragon...who used our own money to buy our debt and therefore our servitude. The greatest transfer of wealth in all histor is not from US Banks to foreign havens, but from this generation of unbelievably greedy American to their unborn grandchildren. We put America's mortgage on the Congress Gold Card at huge interest rates , and the board of directors of that ruthless institution are nearly all Republican or amoral tycoons. But mostly it was the GOP who sold out America. And I definitely place Enzi and Barrasso on that manifest.

As the Middle Class goes, so goes America.
Remember 1956 when America was nicely tuned and running down the highway real strong. The American Dream was a waking dream for us all. And it was wonderful.

You can thank the Unions for a great deal of that . Look what the absence of organized labor has done in the past few decades. It isn't the fault of the UAW that the Big Three car companies are teetering on failure, no matter what you may have heard about the $ 75.00 hour cost of a line assembler and the pensions. The UAW offered some serious concessions in this bailout debate, but the GOP blew it up at the 11th hour.

There is only one thing worse that following Ronald Reagan's anti-Union pro-Corporation trickle down deregulated highly leveraged business modality. That would be the adherence by the current GOP to Herbert Hoover's freakanomics. And that , people, is exactly where we are today this cold December morning in Wyoming.

Send Enzi and Barrasso lumps of coal for Christmas. They deserve as much. And our dear Lady of the Lamentation, Barbara Cubin , wasn't even there to vote on the bailout at all . There isn't enough coal in Wyoming to stuff HER stocking this holidays eason...

Bottom Line: Right To Work laws are Wrong. "

" Executives at the Japanese manufacturers have been surprised to hear lawmakers assert that their workers earn far less than workers employed by Detroit's automakers. One executive who spoke on condition of anonymity confirmed UAW President Ron Gettelfinger's remarks Friday that team members, or line workers, at Toyota's largest North American assembly plant in Georgetown, Ky., earned more than the average UAW worker.

I thinks we have oil field workers making more than they make. "

" Hello "

" Enzi and Barrasso will vote to keep wolves out of Yellowstone and to keep snow machines in Yellowstone. But when it comes to the working stiff salaries and health care, they say down the tube. I guess they do not have this worry. "

" I hope everyone is paying attention to how darned hard-headed and ridiculous Republicans have become. I cannot believe how irresponsible the Republican administration was during the last eight years. No one can convince me that there was anyone else besides the current administration who drove this economy into the dirt. Try as you may...it ain't happening. They try to blame on the Clinton years...but that is bogus. Bush and his republican dummies did it. Plain and simple. So quit the nonesense and realize that myself and 56% of our population know this.

Hopefully people have been paying attention to the garbage the republicans are wallowing in right now. They selfishly are blocking the auto bridge loans just to be contrary and smug! They don't give a darned about the millions of families that will suffer as a result of this catastrophe.

When it's time to vote next time around, WE WILL NOT FORGET WHAT YOU REPUBLICANS DID TO THIS COUNTRY.

Way to put the country first! "

" Our Senator Enzi slowed up at the first hearing made several uninformed statements and did not bother to stay and even listen to the Auto Execs and then didn't even bother to show up at the second hearing then voted to let what might be a catastrophe happen. "

" Enough said! They are idiots. They foolishly voted not to loan the industrial manufacturers of this country (which are backbone of America) a measley 14 billion dollars to keep 2 million plus employees hired. Already today 20 plants are being shut down, that's thousands of jobs lost -- in a day!

How do you spell moronic imbeciles? I spell it like this:
B A R R A S S O - N - E N Z I "

" Quick correction for a previous post. moronic imbeciles = UAW and their supporters.

Inky - you are the one throwing out false propaganda. Barrasso's and Enzi's votes on the TARP were consistent with this bailout vote too.

Richard - Maybe you should watch the second hearing yourself and see what the companies are faced with in order to become solvent. Senator Corker was clearly the person who understood the issue and offered a plan for correcting it. But the UAW is not willing to make urgent monetary concessions just like bond holders will have to do. So the bail out is a short term platinum parachute of a welfare program for the UAW. And yes the UAW welfare program will continue indefinitely with more huge installments because the UAW won't accept what it is needed to do to save their employers companies. So selfish.

Thank you Brasso and Enzi for trying to protect the American People from such a appalling fleecing. Too bad Bush has lost his mind and is not going to allow Chapter 11 to fix this problem. "

" Why doesn't Wyoming just secede from the Union already? (sarcasim) This state voted GOP all the way in Nov. What ever happened to "country first?"

I'm not happy about the bailout either, but I hate to see thousands of Americans lose their jobs. This state only cares about its own. If it were a bailout for mining, or another energy industry Wyoming would be begging for funds.

Maybe we shouldn't have bought into all the Ragenomics stuff in the 80's about letting the free market take care of its self. Then we wouldn't be in this mess.

Sure, maybe the Big three, and Unions did this to themselves, but other industries will be affected by this if they go under.

And I doubt the GOP would be so against this if the Big 3 were based in the red stronghold of the south.

Proud Wyomingite, Prouder American "

" Hollie, just wanted to offer a few facts about your small portion of the nation that is feeling the effects of the financial crisis. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, at the end of Nov. there were 10.3 million unemployed (6.7% nationwide), of which 4.7 million have lost their jobs and do not expect to be recalled and 22m have been jobless for 27 weeks or more. Michigan's weekly unemployment benefits range $81-362 (depending on family size). If 10.3m people were to receive $81 a week in unemployment benefits for 26 weeks the cost would be $21,691,800,000,000 (extended benefits of 52 wks would be $96,943,600,000,000). That 6.7% doesn't seem like such a small number any more does it. Several sources estimate that 3m workers will lose their jobs if the Big 3 auto mfgrs close. This would include assembly line workers, parts mfgr workers, car dealerships, their mechanics and service personnel and other auto related trickle down workers from all across the US. Their benefit costs would add another $28 trillion for 26 wks and $56 trillion for 52wks to the above figures. The costs the UAW won't be paying any longer for retirement, medical and jobs bank would need to be paid. And, Japan is reporting cutting production and possible plant closures (the US plants) - Merc Benz, Honda, Toyota and Hyunda also. More unemployed. Then there's lost government revenue from corporate taxes, payroll, SS, Med and unemployment taxes. An eye opener isn't it -- I think it would be wisest to give a $14 billion loan to the Big 3 and let the UAW continue to serve their people. Besides these are US mfgrs and yes they have made mistakes, and yes they should have looked into their crystall ball and prepared for this financial crisis so they would not have to had to face their US Senate, and we need them. We have lost too many of our manufacturing jobs.

Canada has offered $3.5 b to help GM? Britain, China, Japan, Germany and other countries are helping their auto industries, banks, housing/mortgage as well as other businesses. This is a world wide financial crisis!!!!!! I am not sure Enzi and Barrasso understand this and I was stunned when they voted nay on the auto loans. I was also stunned when the other Senators also voted nay, especially when some of their state and local governments are nearly out of money to fund even basic services and near default on municipal bonds. You know, I watched the first House vote on the $700B Tarp for banks on CSpan last October. During the roll call vote and during the time the vote was held open, I could hear the Representatives telling each other (almost gleefully) how much the stock market was falling. The stock market lost 8% in 30 minutes that day. These Reps came before the news camera after the vote with gleeful expressions on their faces that to me clearly stated 'we sure showed them'. They finally voted for the Tarp after $1.5 B pork barrel funding was added for some of the Reps. It was pretty clear to me that their votes to kill the auto bill was a vindictive vote against the UAW, they didn't give their constituents or the citizens of the US the least bit of consideration. I guess they would rather not work with the UAW, but have us, our children and our grandchildren pick up the tab for their vindictiveness.

The UAW has made concessions, the GM CEO is receiving a $1 salary this year and next year. Ford & Chrysler are also making concessions. CEO's and top officials and boards of the big banks are also taking $1 annual salaries, gave up bonuses, or making other concessions. Dividend payments to investors (even retirees) have been decreased or cut out. These are loans to all these companies, and if this all works out well, should be paid back with interest. It may take awhile, but loan payback means less taxpayer funding.

There are a lot of parties involved in the making of this financial crisis and blame is running rampad. Banks, mortgage companies, wall street firms, stock/bond rating agencies, homebuyers and most assuredly our government's deregulation of banks, credit cards and whatever else they wanted to and especially their lack of oversight of banks and financial markets. Mr. Enzi, an accountant, is on the Senate Banking, House and Urban Affairs Committee. This committe has broad jurisdiction over banks, financial institutions, economic stabilization, financial aid to commerce and industry, housing and other related areas. Mr. Enzi and other members of this committee clearly overlooked a few things and since Mr. Barrasso and the other Senators are clearly out of their element maybe it would be appropriate for them and all other Congressmen to volunteer a concession of a $1 annual salary each year until this mess is cleaned up as well as donate their remaining campaign funds from lobbiest and PACs. That might save the taxpayers a billion or more dollars. "

" A tip of the hat to Coyote for his history lesson. Enzi and Barrasso are tools of the hard-right and voted to bust the unions.
The pattern for next year is already clear. It won't matter what the bill is -- if it originates from the Democratic majority or is supported by the Obama White House, B&E will automatically vote in opposition and use the filibuster to block and delay everything that comes down the pike.
I'd like to see the Democrats either force the GOPers to actually filibuster in fact (keep talking) or impliment the "nuclear option" (remember how the GOP wanted up or down votes when they held the majority?). "

" Coyote I was a federal sector Union Representative. What kind of idiot are you in regards to the Air Traffic Controllers. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence is aware it is illegal for a federal employee to strike and doing so is cause for termination of employment. The federal sector Union has things it can do and things it can not do. Perhaps before you spout off you might want to check it out. Oh never mind it would require a little research on your part and I do not see you perspiring over any thing. "

" Why in the world is right to work wrong? anyone should have a choice on whether to join a union and not be forced intopaying dues union execs can use the funds for thier own uses, steal the retirement molney, use it give to Dems when they ar eRepubs. It iks a socialistic organization for people who don't want to excel and want, sorry I mean need someone else to watch out for them. The american auto workers make with benefits $30 an hour mor ethan the outo workers. Tbe unions are really the ones putting the big three out of business because they won't change with the economic times. They need to match the auto workers so the big three can compete. Why should a fired auto workerget 85% of his salary for three years for incompetence? Why are unions pushing fornon privatizing of ballots? why can't an auto worker vote without everyone knowing how he is voting? The truth is the governmentis partially at fault here for all requirements they put on the autos. mileage safety standards all rasie the prices of the vehicles and put new car pricces out of tthe reach of many Americans. Here is one more question, why don't union negotiators receive strike pay when they ar enegotiating contracts like the workers. Maybe more strikes would be settled then of they had a direct reason to settle. "

" I listened to Gettlefinger at the UAW news conference. It seemed clear to me the union really doesn't want to give any concessions. If in fact UAW workers make less then Toyota workers why didn't they just agree to the govnments terms. If they are already competative whats the problem? I think unions and people that are members of them have to realize times are changed. By the way my dad is a retired union worker and I can't believe the benefits he gets. "

" I decided to look into the UAW just to see if they might be a little overboard on their demands. WOW is all i can say. That contract was insane! I will admit i only looked at the crysler contract news. but i imagine their contracts with ford and gm are similar. Did you know that a UAW member has the option to go to work and collect 100% of their pay. or they can stay home and collect 85% of their pay? Their health insurance is awsome. $22 a month for familly coverage with a $300 deductible. The best part is they also recieve a bonus to help cover the cost of medical. $600 Double their deductible When you retire u collect your paycheck still ,with the med benifits. a little higher deductible. but with the same bonuses. you also recieve paid holidays and vacation time in retirement. You say its not the fault of the UAW that automakers dont make cars people want to buy? Check out the product guarantees section.

My conclusion: theres a reason the UAW is a big part of this debate. Don't believe me check for yourself.

www.uaw.org/contracts/07/chrysler/hrly/index.php

Im all for a good work environment and proper wages but some of these are just unreasonable.

It also seems alot of people are confused about the right to work laws. So here you go.

www.nrtw.org/c/wyrtwlaw.htm "

" Fooey, just to set the facts straight I am not a union supporter. It appears that you are just focused on one small part of a big issue. Even though I am not a big union person, for you to believe that they are the reason for what is happening is very naive. Did oil go to 150 barrel because of the Unions. I quess the stockmarket is tanking because of unions. Maybe that is why we are in Iraq is because of Unions. Become a little less one dimensional and a whole new world may open up for you. "

" COYOTE - Nice rant, but the group that has single-handedly KILLED our booming economy is the hard-left evironazis, most of whom are DEMOCRATS like you.

Look in the mirror, Coyote. YOU and the rest of the "global-warming" crybabies are to blame.

Life was beautiful and our economy was booming before you wacko enviro-nuts took over! "

" I think Upset Grandmother has made the best point on this issue. Regardless of how we got here - and the finger pointing can go on forever (in fact, that seems to be the best thing that everyone is good at) - the bottom line is that it will cost the U.S. taxpayers billions more dollars in unemployment benefits and everything associated with it if we allow these industry giants to fail!

Are our public servants so near-sighted that they can't see ...? - Nevermind, I just answered my question. People, this is just simple math here. You can freak out about 14 billion as a one time distribution. Or actually calculate what's it going to cost all of us over time. Now that's a number that should have us all worried!

Oh, yeah, I almost forgot. 10 billion to Iraq every month for something that has provided us what now? I think the dividends for a big 3 loan probably will pay a lot more than what we are seeing as a return on Iraq. Unless we can sell all the shoes that get thrown at our illustrious leader... "

" George, Nice attempt at changing the topic and not being honest about what I have said. I have not blamed unions for the issues you bring up and I would gladly acknowledge those at fault regarding those issues. However, this debate is about bailing out the automakers, and it is clear that the UAW is the entity that needs to change in order to allow the automakers to survive as a business. However it appears that the government will allow the automakers (really the UAW) to become a continual recipient of welfare distributions. Maybe you should practice what you preach and open your eyes to the fact that the UAW is way out of line and needs to be forced into line if they expect tax payers money to bail them out. "

" Our senators did not vote against this for some noble reason; they were simply following along with the southern republicans who saw this as an opportunity to take a shot at the UAW. The republicans that led the effort to stop this bridge loan for the auto manufacturers were the ones from the southern states where the foreign companies have built plants with hundreds of millions of American tax payers' dollars to build non-union shops in their southern right to work states. The laim excuse that they gave for not supporting it was because they wanted a date that the union workers' wages would be competitive with the non-union workers' wages. The problem with that is that they already are competitive; the UAW workers are making $28 per hour; Toyota workers are making $30 per hour; new hire UAW workers are making $18 per hour...in other words to make the UAW workers wages competitive with Toyota workers they would need a raise. The difference is that the American companies provide health care benefits and the non-union shops do not; I don't think our congress should be in the business of trying to get American companies not to provide health care benefits for their employees unless they are prepared to step up and make affordable health care available to Americans so that companies are not burdoned with this expense. When you talk about the legacy costs of the big 3, you are talking about pension and health care benefits that people worked hard for 30 or 40 years to earn; if we are going to take away pensions, I think we should start with congressional pensions and then pensions of anyone else who thinks that taking away hard earned pension benefits is a good idea. Under normal circumstances I would say let them file for chapter 11 and re-organize. Unfortunately, these are not normal circumstances; we have lost about 2 million jobs this year in the U.S. and cannot afford to lose a couple million more in the next couple of months. Also, under a chapter 11 re-organization the company has to acquire transitional financing to keep the company operating and functioning during the bankruptcy process; unfortunately in the current state of the financial industry they would not be able to obtain the necessary financing and would have to go to chapter 7 liquidation. Also, their sales would completely come to a hault, as noone would purchase a car from a bankrupt company, thus escalating the decline and creating more havoc. Noone likes the government having to help private business in this way, but in this case the cost of doing nothing would be way more expensive than the cost of helping. "

" J.A.C.,
The UAW already agreed to give up the job bank that you were describing as getting paid for nothing as well as many other concessions on wages and benefits. I am glad they are getting good health care benefits and wish everyone in the country had them. New hires now make half what Toyota workers in their American plants make. There is nothing wrong with employees getting health care benefits and pensions after decades of service after retirement. GM's problems are largely due to all the different brands of cars that they have acquired over the years; especially the gigantic gas hogs like the Hummers. Ford has stuck to their core brands and is doing much better. By the way, the upper management of GM makes more money than all the workers put together and they are the ones who make all the poor decisions; the workers only do what they are told to do. Sad that you want to blame the failures of these companies on the workers. There is nothing wrong with people being rewarded for their hard work; the problem isn't that the auto workers are getting too much; the problem is that the average American worker is not rewarded nearly enough for their efforts and that the upper management is over-rewarded for doing too little. "

" No bailout for the UAW. If the union will not agree to terms that bring the pay and benefits of the big three workes in line with the German, Korean and Japanese workers in the plants in the US then let the big 3 fold and reorganize sans the UAW or just get bought up by some one else. "

" Whatever
How does a reduction in the wages given to new hires help when there are not any new hires? What a farce to say this is a helpful concession. Same as the jobs bank concessions that came too late.

Regardless of all the debate assigning fault, the point is that the companies are insolvent and something has to be done to make them solvent, and the UAW is not willing to make the difficult concessions necessary to give the companies a realistic chance at becoming solvent.

In truth, there are two reasons Ford is currently OK. 1) Ford took out a huge loan before the credit markets froze. 2) Ford is able to self-finance most of their dealers floor planning, unlike GM or Chrysler.

No matter WHATEVER emotions you are feeling, the fact is that UAW costs (current and legacy) are too high for the companies to stay solvent. What needs to happen is either UAW can make real concessions that address this problem, or the companies can address them through bankruptcy. Too bad so many fools just think the American tax payers should be fleeced to provide a massive UAW welfare program that does not address the real problem. "

" To h_ll with the greedy UAW and to h_ll with the idiots in congress that created the untenable situation that brought the big three auto makers to their knees. This failure is directly linked to the socialist legislation passed over the past 50 years leading to this point. Only a moron would think that giving away our federal tax dollars could over-turn 50 years of socialist scr_wing with the economy in general and the auto industry specifically.

No bailouts for ANYONE. Sink or float on your own. "

" Sorry Fooey, I think the UAW caused gobal warming also. "

" No bail-outs. Get government our of business and out of the way of business. Where is it in the constitution that the elected officials can give our cash away to the failing companies that they want to prop-up? How many in congress hold big 3 stock...can you smell conflict of interest? "

" Giving up worthless welfare job banks that never should have existed is no concession at all. The UAW needs to really look at what they under the color of law have done to our American auto industry. The unions had a time and place long ago in this country. Now the workers are protected by laws on the books being enforced. The unions are no longer a help, they are now only a burden to the workers and to the economy as a whole. The unions need to go. "

" I don't want to blame the workers. You really can't blame them. They dont have the protection of right to work laws. They were forced to join the union to get the job. Unfortunatly their economy is kind of like wyomings. Instead of energy theirs is the auto industry. To get any kind of a decent job they had to join the union. Is it the unions fault? Dont know. their job is to get as much as they possibly can out of the companys. Times have been good for these companys. Stocks have been up. with easy credit sales have been up. life has been good. the union said hey we want some more or we stop working. Company said ok ok you can have some more. so they did their job. So what about the upper management? Is their pay out of line? Yea its extremely high but not out of the ordinary for ceo's. seems like the going rate. So where did the profitability go. Is it a supply problem? In the 80's and 90's we shipped alot of our surplus steel oversees now we are buying it back at a premium. is this the problem? could a tax break effective immediatly solve the problem? Is this a part of the credit problem with the banks. People cant get loans to buy cars? if this is the problem why dont we just give them some of the $700 billion we already forked over to the banks? Their not using it for the intended purpose. Maybe the big 3 financial departments will. What new regulations. have gone into effect recently. or will be going into effect soon. would easing these for a couple of years work? I dont know what the problem is. But im sure that the big three Looked into all of them before ever going to congress. And it seems to me that out of all of them the UAW is what we hear about the most. While looking into this i came across a link to a picture. I wasnt able to see the pic.it was a bad link but the caption said it was a picture of the UAW contract with GM. 22 lbs with a soda can next to it for comparison. If that pic is real ( hard to tell theres so much bs info out there) thats a heck of alot of paper with a heck of alot of details in it. so the question is should we throw money at this before the problems are solved? and will it even do any good? "

" If the UAW agreed to work for free it would not solve their problems. The bulk of the $ that need to be cut are in upper management, bond holders, and dealerships. Trying to put all the blame on the workers is ridiculous. There needs to be much restructuring at the American car companies. Letting the industry die will have an enormous ripple affect that will cost way more than it would cost to make the bridge loan. Those of you who are rooting for them to go bankrupt are not looking at the big picture. There are thousands of suppliers, dealerships, service centers, and parts companies that will be hurt; not to mention the indirect affects on advertising media, charity organizations, etc. who rely on the directly affected businesses. Then there are the billions of dollars of unemployment and other benefits that the millions of workers will be entitled to, which will cost more than the bridge loans would cost and will not be paid back like loans would be. The posts against the bridge loans and the stubborn stand of our senators and the other republican senators who are playing politics with fire are very short-sighted and not well thought out. At a time when we just lost 2 million jobs over the last year, we cannot afford to allow our manufacturing base to take such a huge hit in order to try to play games and take shots at organized labor. "

" As a former union member, 13 yrs,I can say that unions are their own worst enemys...I watched as they forced companys to hire when that was not needed.Never wanted to give and inch and ended up getting their asses handed to them...Never wanting to get modern....Just pay your dues every month so that when times are tough, if your not in the union upper crust, were going to sell you down the river either way.......Unions are for fools....... "

" "If the UAW agreed to work for free it would not solve their problems" - so why should we throw good money after bad, which will just turn into perpetual welfare for a non-working business model?

"The bulk of the $ that need to be cut are in ... bond holders" - True, because of the massive legacy costs that the UAW have saddled the companies with. Senator Corker came up with a plan to rid the companies of a significant proportion of this bond debt, but along with bond holder concessions, it also required the UAW to make concessions, so that the companies could have a realistic path to solvency . Both the UAW and bond holders would get equity stakes in return for their concessions, but the UAW would not be reasonable and thus this working proposal failed, which is the only proposal I know of that was more than just a band aid. Even Dodd and Reid was impressed with Corker's attempt to resolve the problems. Too bad others just want to frame Corker as a union busting villain, which is not anywhere near being truthful.

All we are doing by providing these companies a bailout (the term bridge loan is a fallacy until the companies/UAW agree to a plan that will actually allow for the money to be paid back) is pushing the day of reckoning back and in the mean time we will waste even more money. We should take the hit now in the short term, so that eventually in the long term we can move past this situation. "

" The agreement that you are talking about that the UAW and Corker came up with was actually agreed upon by both; the problem was when Corker went to the other republicans they were not happy with the agreement and wanted the UAW to give a date certain but did not demand dates certain for any other players. The republicans had no intention of going along with the agreement no matter what anyone agreed to because they had already decided ahead of time that this was their chance to take a shot at unions. "

" Fiercely Independent my azz. Why don't you be honest and call yourself fiercely blindly following republican lemming; every comment that you post sounds like it was written by Fox News. You don't have one independent bone in your body. You are not fooling anyone. You can put lipstick on a lying republican pig, but he's still a lying republican pig. "

" get real, What is your argument for the bail-out? How will this reverse the long downward trend for the automakers and how long will it be until the US tax payers are repaid for this loan?

This is not an issue of party loyalties. This is an issue of loyalty to the US tax payer.

Why do you think that a government plan for business will succeed? This is the same congress that cannot pass a balanced budget or control its own pork spending. How do you think that they can offer professional businessmen a better way ahead?

What odds of success do you give the big 3 with our money? How do you calculate those odds? If you had to write a big check tomorrow, say 3/4's of your families investments and savings combined, to bail-out your brother in law with these same slim odds would you do it, and by you doing so you put the next four generations of your family into debt doing it? Well, would you then do that?

I think that the idiot that is blind and in party lock step is you, not Fiercely Independant.

Oh, and by the way calling someone else a pig becuae they disagree with you is noting short of juvinile. But you knew that didn't you as you are one obviously. "

" There is plenty of blame to go around for the failure of the Big Three car makers in America.

All parties, Labor, Management and Government must own up to that and all three need to give far more to make this work.

The one party that is not at fault is the consumer. Yet it is the consumer that is being punished with the use of tax dollars to try and fix this mess. This includes consumers that are not even born yet that would be forced to pay taxes in years and years to come.

No bail-out for the Big Three, UAW or Government on the backs of the tax paying consumers. Fix it yourselves or let them go under and be replaced. That would be better for the economy anyway. "

" I think it was actually the bond holders that wanted a certain date concession from the UAW in order allow the deal to go through, but you are right in that the deal fell apart when Corker took it back to the Republican caucus for discussions regarding the UAW unwillingness to concede on that desire.

get real - maybe you should GET a clue and look up Libertarian philosophy to try and understand my beliefs. True that they often fall in line with traditional Republican party values (i.e. fiscal conservatism, small government, defend the nation, free market, gun rights, etc..), but not always (e.g civil liberties, ridiculous war on drugs policy, separation of church and state). Maybe my views are too independent for you to understand, but I know that there are a lot of Wyomingites that also have very similar Libertarian leanings, which is something I love about this state.

Thanks for the support Ethel. "

" I think that we all understand what the desired out come, or the intended consequences of the proposed bail out should be.

What are the unintended consequences of the proposed bail out?

Some potential consequences (and intended ones) will not come to full fruition for years and years to come and are nearly are hard to predict as are the wanted result's potential success (or failure).

We seem to have a need to rush to judgment, and have a completed plan and its results "over night" these days.

I guess that we have been conditioned to that by TV programs. In 30 minutes the cast is introduced, then a problem breaks out, the actors face a conflict of wills, and then it is all resolved and over before that final interruption from the commercial sponsor.

We will never think things through to a "best plan" and predictable result by always rushing to judgment and then blaming the other side for failure even before anything can be actually put into action.

Let's grow up, shall we?

Last, let's ask the first question, which I believe is this: should government even be considered as part of this particular solution if that means government spending of public funds on private enterprises that are publically traded businesses? This is both a philosophical question and a practical question. "

" HEY all of you dumb azz republicans.

FACT: 32 states do not have the funds to pay for unemployment at this time.

Now that you dumb azz republicans have stupidly blocked the progress of the bridge loans, and 3+ millions will be unemployed...how do they collect their unemployment checks?

Dumb azzes, Dumb azzes, Dumb azzes!

~~~sigh~~~~

Now what? "

" I agree with a post above. You can put lipstick on a LYING REPUBLICAN PIG...but it's still a LYING REPUBLICAN PIG!

I can't stand Barrasso and Enzi. They are two of three Wyoming Jackasses. Cheney, of course, is #1.

SO------------SO---------------SO

That is his answer when reporters tell him we invaded Iraq under false pretenses. SO!

He also answers that when he acknowledges that he and his cronie BUSH (talk about dirty and corrupt politicians!) committed WAR CRIMES of the highest degree (by invading with clear knowledge that it was illegal). He says...SO!

Dumbazz Wyoming republicans! "

" You Hussein Obama-Binladin Kool-Aid drinking dems are all alike. You Socialists would bail out everyone and everything until there’s nothing left. The three major industries in America are all struggling because of their unions and you crazies want to bailout one of them. After this bailout (not Loans) are you suggesting we bailout the teachers union and the airline unions as well? These unions are so corrupt they commit fraud against their own retirees by stealing their retirement. Just like we the people are doing to social security. I say we the people because we’re allowing it to happen. Get a clue – if there were no more welfare programs...everyone would have to get a job or starve but it is their choice. Unions are government supported welfare programs, especially when dems are in control. "

" Them Li bertarians are commies...it they had such a following why then can they only come up with venom spewing spoons like this bonehead that keeps putting out his BS posts...sound like he's bitter..feeling sorry for himself, following Idiots Blindly...Ron Pauls a KOOK just like this multi posting idiot. "

" I GUESS IM A ROCKET SCIENTIST... Who said that any of us posting here support unemployment of welfare in any form?

We're all adults here, the folks working for the big three have seen this day coming for years. What have they done to prepare for it? Have they been taking classes at night to retrain for a new career?

Next, are many billions of dollars taken from the tax payers worth keep a few hundred thousand people employed in a failed industry for an extra few months?

Face reality, market forces must direct the market, not socialist policies that will bankrupt the next five generations of American just to keep a few hundred thousand people employed make grossly bloated salaries for unskilled, manual labor.

Time change. You either change with them or you go the way of the dinosaurs. "

" What promise do we tax payers have that this will work? For how long? When do we get our money back? Will the UAW go back to it's old ways when and if the car makers show signs of getting healthy again? All three of the American car companies should just go into bankruptcy, break the union and then reorganize and modernize. "

" unions ar eonly part of the problem. But the bailout won't work for anythjing unless the auto industry is willing to change they way they operate. If we bail them out now with no changes, we are just delaying the same thing hapeening again later. It is imperative the union smake concessions, it is imperative the executives no longer rape the aompanies with outrageous bonuses, ect. Many of the Senators who voted against thew bailout including 10 Democrats, ( 8 Republicans voted for it), voted this way because the big three have not been willing to change any of their operation to make them profitable in the future. A bailout or loan only works if the the big three will be fiscally sound in the futurre. if they don't change the way they operate including union demands, how will anything change? "

" I hate to tell all you hating Republicans but 10 Democrats voted against the bailout. How in the world can you blame Republicans if the Dems have the mojorities to vote anything they want in? Only an idiot would blame the minority party that doesn't have enough votes to defeat any bill's passage. Blaming Republicans is just stupid when Dens control the Senate and the Congress.. Idiotic logic "

" Sounds like a whole lot of republican blaming going on to me........it takes 2 to tango...........this whole economic crap started with the Clinton Admin....Barney ,Dodd..........just more uninformed spew............ "

" If Wyoming tax payers' federal funds are used to bail-out any industries they will be Wyoming's industries not the union crippled industries of another state. "

" Barrass and Enzi STINK, Grow up, shut up or both.

You add nothing to this discussion of any value what-so-ever. "

" I have been a Wyoming resident for just over a year now. I was born and raised in Michigan. I also happen to be an employee of Chrysler. The thing I liked about most of the people I met in this great state was how level headed everyone seemed to be. I have read most of the comments on this page and am frustrated with the lack of education on the "bail out". I agree with a lot of the comments to an extent. Fnozman hit it right on the head. GM & Chrysler are not asking for free money, they are simply asking for a loan( which has interest applied). The automotive business in the US is crutial to the overall survival of our economy. The Big 3 cannot and will not go under. It is however, necessary for these companies to restructure in some way, shape or form. The companies did not fail. It has been stated over and over again, the economy is in a recession and the automotive business is purely consumer driven. When the economy is in great standings, car sales see major growth. In turn, when the economy is down, sales hit lows. For some people to say, let the Big 3 fall, I feel that is completely unamerican. The Big 3 are a major part of the foundation of our economy. In my opinion, if the bail out was aimed at helping the energy business, both Enzi and Barrasso wouldn't even have to think which way they would vote. What a lot of people are not seeing is the true impact to the US economy. I heard somewhere that nearly 30% of the jobs in the US are somehow related to the automotive industry. If the Big 3 were to go under, it would not eliminate all of these jobs but substantially impact the number of employees required to run the daily operations. Think of how many dealerships are in the state for each brand. I guess all I am trying to say is get all of your facts straight before you go shooting off uneducated facts on a blog, some of you sound pretty dumb. Now take a few minutes to absorb that, get some credible facts, and write a new post. "

" Not that a few facts will change any number of minds, but here goes:
1. No one buys $20,000 of tickets from an airline in bankruptcy and expects to travel for the next three years.
2 Wyoming taxpayers receive more from the federal trough than they pay in.
3. Nearly every time a mineral industry complains about tough times, they get a tax break from the state and/or a boost from Congress-- never a "bailout."
4. The tourist industry in this state and agriculture operations live on taxpayer supported subsidies. There is darn little talk of letting them survive on their own merits.
5. Time after time, Wyoming has proved that it doesn't think like the rest of America. "

" Nick,
You need to get your facts straight. The democrats hold a 1 seat majority in the Senate right now; by Senate rules in order to pass a bill it needs 60 votes. Please explain to me how 50 Senators can cast 60 votes. The democrats hold a little bigger majority in the house and the bill passed there. There were some democrats who voted against this in the Senate and there were some republicans who voted for it. This wasn't along party lines, but rather was the Senators from right to work states who saw this as an opportunity to take a shot across the bow of unions. Unfortunately, they did not see the big picture, as this will be a shot across the bow of the American economy if the American auto manufacturers go under at a time when our economy is already in turmoil and we are hemoraging jobs by the hundreds of thousands per month. Great depression number two; here we come. "

" Dan, Your industry has been broken for decades now. The UAW's control of the US automakers is also ridiculous. A lot of major changes are needed if they are to survive and one day become competitive again. You will never be able to compete on an equal footing and survive against the German, Japanese and Korean plants right here in America if bailed out. The best chance of that is via declaration of bankruptcy. Without the protection of bankruptcy the big three will never shake the disastrous policies of the UAW and be able to modernize. Bankruptcy doesn't mean that you are necessarily out of a job, but many will certainly be cut. I hope that you have an education and a back up plan. I for one am unwilling to gamble with the next four generations tax dollars in the hope that these public loans to private enterprise will ever be repaid. Consolidation and reorganization are natural, normal and needed in a free market, capitalistic economy. The government propping up failed business models only makes things worse in the long run. I hope that you are ready for the worst that is yet to come, and certainly will come. By the way, we're not uneducated about the proposed foolish bail-out. We get it, and we don't like it. "

" Too many of you seem to be unaware of how closely interdependent we are with the rest of the country. You think this is just a Michigan problem tht doesn't affect us if the car makers go under. Maybe you need to check on how many big 3 dealerships there are in our state. Also, if you think that the impact of a couple million jobs lost will not create a ripple effect throughout the economy, you are sadly mistaken. The American car makers have come a long way in improving their operations over the last several years, then just when they are about to begin to become competitive again this economic downturn has crippled them. If this was a loan to help the energy companies our Senators would be first in line to vote for it; I guess they don't realize they are playing with fire, as the collapse of the big 3 will trickle down to Wyoming as well. This is one case where trickle down economics will prove to be true. I hope that president Bush will do the right thing and help avoid disaster even though our Senators and a minority of others who are motivated purely by politics and not paying attention to the broader implications were determined to undermine this necessary aid to help avoid a complete economic disaster. "

" There you go again blaming the UAW. Yes, the UAW bears some of the blame, but there are many others who have partial blame in this as well. The management of the companies are the ones who have made all the mistakes. The bond holders and dealers have been too greedy and have greatly contributed as well. All parties were willing to compromise on this, but a small group of Senators shot it down for partisan reasons. In the current state of the financial markets there is a good chance that if the car companies go bankrupt at this time they will not be able to obtain the financing to emerge from bankruptcy and will instead go completely under. The money needed for this bridge loan is slightly more than we have been spending per month to occupy Iraq; I don't see how we can allow our manufacturing base to collapse for that small of an amount of money. If we can afford $700 billion to hand out to Wall Street banks so they can buy other banks, throw big parties, and pass out dividends to their investors while doing absolutely nothing to help the economy, I think we can afford to make a loan to the auto industry in order to keep from losing millions of jobs at a time when we cannot afford to lose them. "

" The questions are:

1) Is this going to be an effective tactic?

2) Will this tactic have a long term positive effect?

3) Is this the BEST use of tax payers money?

4) What garrantee do the tax payers have of getting their money back in a reasonable time frame (say 10 years)? "

" Two wrongs do not make a right.

Just because something was done before does not make it right to do it again. "

" You can try and spin this proposed bail-out any way that you like, no matter what it is wrong and it should not happen. "

" The questions are:

1) Is it going to cost more to not make the bridge loans than it will to make them?

2) Can our economy afford to lose a couple million jobs in the middle of what is already the worst economic crisis in a generation?

3) If we are making a substantial loan to the auto manufacturers does that give us leverage to force them to make changes to their business model so that they will be able to be successful?

4) If they are allowed to go to bankruptcy, is there transitional financing available to allow them to re-structure or will they go into liquidation and cause unsustainable job losses that will cripple our economy and send us from a recession into a depression?

The cost of inaction is unacceptable to our already struggling economy. The cost in unemployment and other benefits should they fail is likely to cost more than the bridge loans would cost and would not be re-paid. Assisting our domestic auto industry gives us the best chance of being able to insist that they re-structure, become competitive again, and avoid catastrophic job losses that are unsustainable at this time. If they do not perform, the American people as the senior lender would have the right to take control of the companies, make the changes needed, and sell the new and improved companies to someone that would make the industry vibrant once again. I believe that they are already on the path to becoming viable again and would re-pay the loan with interest and it would prove to be a good investment. "

" The "bail out" is not a bail out, it's a loan. And this is not an automotive industry issue, it's a credit issue. We didnt see this much complaining when the govnmt bailed out Goldman Sachs-now did we? The root cause of this issue starts with credit companies loaning money and issuing credit cards to those people who had no business getting the money, because they had no way to pay it back. They were given and received credit cards , home loans and etc that was beyond their means of debit to credit ratio to be able to pay back. These credit companies had the hope of giving out money and being able to collect minimum payments for the rest of your lives. Now just tell me-HOW MANY OF YOU ON THIS BLOG/POST FIT THAT BILL? Then when no one could pay back what they owed.......WA-LA...credit crisis. But of course I like said above, no one complained when bailed out the creditors, because it got them off the backs of the people that owed them money. REFER to the Saturday December 13th edition of the Casper Star Tribune, there is a clear and very concise editorial written by Phil Schmidt a local car dealer owner, his comments are very clear and concise and filled with facts, not B/S from the media......By the way, I am also in the automotive field and have been for almost 25 years as well as a 30 year resident of Wyoming. "

" Thain, while I respect and agree a lot of what you said, I do have a few comments. First off, I respect everyone's comments, but do not agree with all of them. That is a right every individual has, they are able to form their own opinion based on the background and information provided to them. Take a second, if you already have not, to read the post directly below yours. That person has it nailed. In times like these, everyone focuses on the negative. The big three have made tremendous strides in quality and product improvement, only to be crippled by a CREDIT CRISIS, which is the true issue at hand. If you paid attention to the second visit to Wash DC, you would know that there was a plan in place to begin repaying by 2012, 3 years away. You do not come across as a gambling man, but the Senate has proven to gamblers. Wasn't the start of the federal assistance started with Wall Street, who provided no plan, pay or benefit cuts, or restructuring up front? GM and Chrysler have a plan in place and have already started working towards that. If you are willing to let our economy become based solely upon foreign auto makers, you are indeed a gambling man. Lets all come together and create a monoply, thats where I see it going. These are times when the American public needs to come together and support our own. I am not in any form of worry about losing my job. If that happens, I am well enough positioned to step into a variety of new jobs. That is not what I want. I want to see America succeed and the Big 3 to remain prominent. You are right, there are issues that need to be worked out, so give them the opportunity to do so. I know history repeats itself, but I am optimistic that everything will pan out. If for some reason the Big 3 disappeared tomorrow, I guarantee you will be affected somehow. Put the domestic auto makers aside. Think of all of the suppliers, dealers, transportation companies, ENERGY companies, and so on that will incurr the ripple affect. Wyoming is very interdependent of the US but also very dependent on a good economy. Please respond, I enjoy sharing point of view. "

" Actually; The car makers build what the customers demand in a free market economy. We demand few economy cars and lots of trucks and SUV's. Your remark is the liberal left's dream...making us all drive electric Hugo's.

MIKE B; We did not have the time to react to the bank bail-out, or many of us surely would have. The fickle pick-and-choose actions taken by our economically ignorant congress was deplorable. As noted above by Montefeltro "Two wrongs do not make a right."

This lending of the tax payers dollars holds little promise of success or a return on our investment.

Let me put it this way, if you have $100,000 dollars to invest, would you loan that to your drunk, over weight in debt up to his eye balls neighbor or would you invest it in a young fit, hardworking guy/gal that has strong savings and investments and is running a successful business?

Don't let anyone appeal to your emotions with threats of massive unemployment or the destruction of our national defense if the big three fail. If the big three go into bankruptcy most employees of the big three will remain at work while these companies reorganize and modernize in order to be able to successfully compete in the market with the foreign car builders. It will also allow them to dump the insane financial burdens placed on them by the unions which are strangling the car builders.

The best thing that the big three could do would be to declare bankruptcy and move their entire operation to right to work states and away from the corrupt and UAW poisoned political climate of Michigan immediately. "

" SANFORD AND SON-, No we did not have time to react to the the credit crisis bail out. Do you know why? Because the media did not have time to blow it all out of porportion with 32 channels on TV and the govnmt pushed it under the rug before there was time to react to it. You know why they pushed it under the rug.? Because its the same companies that are paying the kick backs to people you have elected, sending them on trips and what ever else......thats why! As to answer your question-No I would give the money to my drunken neighbor, but at the same time I would not give it to the so called young successful businees person you are refering to, unless I had proven facts that he/she had a resepectable debit/credit ratio and I was ensure they had the means to repay the debit. As for some further info....in the state of Wyoming there are apprx 3000-5000 people that are either employed by the auto industry or it's support structure. That includes-MECHANICS, ADMIN, DEALERS, SALESPERSONS, SUPPORT STAFF, TRANSPORATION WORKERS, VENDORS OF ALL TYPES (AFTERMARKET PARTS STORES, ACCESSORY STORES, INDEPENDENT REPAIR SHOPS, ETC), ENERGY COMPANIES AND WORKERS THAT RELY ON TRANSPORTATION.......THE LIST GOES ON AND ON AND ON OF THE PEOPLE THAT COULD/WILL BE EFFECTED SHOULD THE LOAN/BAIL OUT NOT OCCUR.
I would be willing to bet that over 70% of the people on this post in one way or another would be greatly affected. Now think about this.......if 5000 people in a state with a population of what 500,000 were to lose thier jobs or be effected, what do you think that would do to our own state economy???
NOT TO MENTION.....DO YOU OWN A VEHICLE? WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO IF IT BREAKS DOWN, YOU NEED TO BUY A REPLACEMENT, OR ANYTHING ELSE ALONG THAT LINES. ....SURE GO AHEAD AND BUY A FORIGIEN UNIT. I'LL BE LAUGHING MY BUTT OFF WHEN YOU HAVE TO HITCH HIKE BACK HOME AFTER HAVING TO TAKE IT TO THE NEAREST DEALER 250 MILES AWAY!!!!!
DUH-Not too many of them thar forigien car fix 'em places nearby. "

" Thank you George W. Probably one of his finer moments in his second term was displayed this morning on the Today Show. Now the automakers have the time to make educated and timely decisions to do what is best for the company. Now it is truely in the hands of the company's CEO's to make the right changes. And this bridge loan has structure. I am not one to point fingers, but I am optimistic there will be a few "I told you so's". "

" MIKE B, 3-5K people out of ~500K is statistically insignificant for Wyoming employment. Besides, very few of them would loose their jobs if the big 3 enters into chapter 7 bankruptcy. During the reorganization, consolidation and modernization most of these people will retain their jobs for the companies they work for now (even if bought out by another competitor).

Dan, Let's hope that during this 90 day "cooling off period" the UAW and Ron Giveusthefinger also sobers up and starts making some real concessions bringing them in line with the pay and compensation packages provided to US workers in foreign owned auto plants here in America. If not the big 3 will fail and the loan (which will not be repaid if they fail) will only prolong the inevitable. "

" I am proud of you president Bush; you did the right thing. I think the U.S. automakers are actually on the right track to becoming a strong industry once again and I believe that they will step up and improve their businesses to the point that they will be competitive again and these loans will prove to be a good investment. All parties have agreed to do their part to ensure the success of our domestic auto industry (ie: management, labor, bond holders, dealers, etc.). I'm glad that the president did not allow partisan games to cloud his judgement on this one, as our economy could ill afford the shock of losing this industry at this time. Cudos to president Bush; I haven't had that many opportunities to say that, but I mean it; I wish I had had more opportunities to say that during his presidency. I always wish each American president the best and root for them to be successful for the sake of our nation. I wish more people on the far ends of the political spectrum on both sides would come to the middle and work together to solve problems and to keep our country the greatest nation on earth. We cannot accomplish anything if we split up into two camps, call each other names, and throw rocks at each other. There is much that we can agree on; let's start there, in the middle, and build consensus around those things that we all have in common. "

" Dan, You seem to have forgotten President Bush's extraordinary leadership immediately after the events of 911. You also seem to have forgotten the massive tax relief that he provided to all of us as well. You also seem to have forgotten the strong leadership he has exhibited in building a coalition for peace in the middle east, his patience with a fickle and gutless UN that allow Sadam to violate sanctions on 16 occasions and his incredible courage in the face of endless assault on all sides as he stood by his principals in freeing, stabilizing and now transitioning out of Iraq. You cannot judge a man's greatness based on the words of a highly biased press paid for by the likes of George Soros or this one event loaning money to the failing auto industry, although his plan and its requirements are far better than our utter worthless congress could come up with and then not pass. History will well and favorably remember George W Bush for this and many other things. The press and celebrity non-thinkers will be conspicuously absent from the pages of history. "

" It would be better if they went belly up and started over...without the menace and burden of the worthless, socialist UAW! "

" Cordoba, note on my post where I stated 'ONE of his finer moments in his SECOND term". George W has definately done some good for the country. I can tell you are passionate about Bush, and thats great. He has also brought a lot of issues on himself by making weak calls trying to relive the legacy of his father, in my opinion. I agree George W will be remembered in history for all the great things he has done for our country. That is not what we are here to debate.

Cooper - I could not agree more. Gettlefinger announced today he has no intentions of restructuring contracts for UAW. I have a feeling he is dead wrong. If anything, they will be strong armed into a resolution to remain comeptitive. The leaders of GM and Chrysler are going to do whatever it takes to make this ship turn around. "